In this episode of You’re Not Crazy, Ray Ortlund and Sam Allberry discuss biblical criticism, correction, conflict aversion, and gentle restoration.
“One of the ways that ministers injure people is by rebukes that are too severe. People are never helped by being cornered and pressured and embarrassed, especially publicly embarrassed.” – Ray Ortlund
In this episode of You’re Not Crazy, Ray Ortlund and Sam Allberry discuss biblical criticism and correction.
• Introducing Larry (0:00)
• Gospel culture and criticism (1:52)
• Blessed by correction (5:37)
• Correction is a two-way street (8:40)
• Reasonable and biblical (13:22)
• Gentle restoration (16:12)
• Conflict aversion (19:14)
• Recommended resources: ESV Devotional Psalter (Crossway) and In the Lord I Take Refuge by Dane Ortlund (21:01)
Explore more from TGC on the topic of relationships.
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Sam Allberry
You know, to this day I can think of those moments as as tokens of very deep friendship. I think of one particular friend of mine, he's been one of my best friends for 25 plus years, I think. I remember having a conversation with him years ago, where he he pointed out, not in these words, but pointed out a way in which I was being a complete idiot. And the way he did it conveyed such deep love and concern. I've never forgotten that. And it makes me to this day grateful, you know, for him as a as a friend.
Sam Allberry
Welcome back to you're not crazy. Gospel sanity for young pastors, and we're very aware of the non young non pastors who listen to this as well. You are so welcome as well. We're just glad to have you with us. Thank you for giving us this privilege of spending this time with you. Welcome, right. Great to be with you again. Right. We are in your study. Tell us who Larry is.
Ray Ortlund
Larry, that's the informal of reference to Lawrence. Elke Lawrence is here on the wall. He has moved just two months ago from Colorado. Yeah, he he lives now in the Nashville area. Yeah. So he's big country music fan.
Sam Allberry
So where did you and Larry meet?
Ray Ortlund
I met Larry in the the rocky mountains of Colorado about a year ago, I made his acquaintance in a rather dramatic fashion. And that was when he decided to move to Tennessee.
Sam Allberry
There's a cast of faces in this in this room, which we need to introduce our listeners to at some stage. But good Ray, our our topic today is, is receiving criticism we've had a lot of people have written in over the months of this podcast to sort of say where does Where does gospel culture fit into? How we receive criticism from other people how we may have to offer correction to other people and even the whole issue of something like church discipline? How does all of that relate to gospel culture? I'm sure you've never received any criticism in your life. But how should we if we're if we're trying to be, again, people who embody the heart of Christ in the way that we serve in our churches? How should we think about the criticism we receive?
Ray Ortlund
It's an important topic. It's a delicate question, because we've all been criticized brutally. And so even, you know, approaching the topic, we kind of have our guard up. We've had some horrible experiences with preps we ourselves have been brutal and unkind. In the ministry of correction, I mean, that is a part of gospel culture. The smile of God is not an all approving grin. Colossians 110 We want to be fully pleasing to Him. Hebrews 12, He disciplines us out of fatherly love. He wants to help us grow. And we can't take everything that we are right now. Unchanged untransformed unredeemed, into the future that we longed for. So some things about me, some things about all of us have got to change. And sometimes I can't see what it is about me that's got to change for my life to go where I really long for it to go. One of the questions that I think healthy, gospel centered, if we really believe in justification by faith alone, and God's grace to the undeserving that creates a social environment. That is not crisis, see, and precarious. We're not walking on eggshells. We are deeply accepted and welcomed, we are justified, we are adopted, we belong. Now, in that context, gentle, respectful, interactive. Correction is both inevitable and helpful. So a question that honest brothers in Christ asked each other or something we say is, okay. Help me see myself, helped me see myself as I can't see who I really am. And if we're unwilling to ask that question, that itself is Wow, that's eyebrow raising. Yeah. What do we have to protect? So, Sam, thank you for putting this on the agenda. Let's all accept this is a little bit scary to us. A bit threatening. And we're going to face it, we're going to trust the Lord and face it together and think it through. What is the Lord taught you about the ministry, not the brutality, the ministry, the servanthood, of correction and counsel within the context of gospel culture.
Sam Allberry
Yeah, I've, I've been blessed. Two or three very key points in my life to have godly kind brothers point out something I'm doing that is, is needing to be corrected, not in a gung ho, got chair slap you down kind of way. But in a genuine, heartfelt we think you you're not getting this right. And, you know, to this day, I can think of those moments as as tokens of very deep friendship. I think of one particular friend of mine, he's been one of my best friends for 25 plus years, I think. I remember having a conversation with him years ago, where he he pointed out, not in these words, but pointed out a way in which I was being a complete idiot. And the way he did it conveyed such deep love and concern, I've never forgotten that. And I've, I've, it makes me to this day grateful, you know, for him as a friend. So there'll be moments like that where I've, I've seen the Lord's kindness behind a difficult conversation with a friend. One of the other things we have to reckon with is when the criticism comes outside the context of gospel culture, and where it may not always be being offered in a way that is gracious and kind and expressing of friendship. And I can't remember who I heard this from, but I remember somebody saying, once, listen, even if someone is having a go at you, and they're not, you know that they're not right, in what they're saying, or at least in the in the extents of their critique, you're still far worse person than they realize you are. That's helped me sort of times when I've sort of been on the receiving end of some fairly harsh words, which I thought actually, they've either not understood me or they've not tried to figure out where I'm coming from, and they're throwing things at me that actually genuinely aren't the case is to think well, yeah, I'm just I'm still way worse than they think I am. That's helped me to receive some of that, and to sort of, not be crushed by it, but also not to then get very defensive and self protecting and how dare they and, you know, how could anyone ever think such a thing? So, and in my more thoughtful moments, to think, Okay, how have they got the wrong end of the stick? And Is any of that on me? is, you know, is there something I've written an article or said in the sermon that okay, yeah, I could see how they would have heard that from what I've said, in which case, okay, that some of that's on me. And I need to learn to add another extra bit of nuance to that particular thing that I was saying. So even the not very godly forms of criticism can still be of service to us, if we, if we allow it to be,
Ray Ortlund
that's fair minded, and mature and humble. The the ministry of correction itself can be so incorrect, but when it is respectful, with two way communication. So, here's what I'm seeing. Am I misunderstanding you in this way? So it's not one way communication. It's not me just telling you. But it's us talking together interacting. In other words, the Ministry of correction is incorrect when I make youth problem, but when the problem is out here, and you and I are considering the problem there and helping each other, understand it more help more profoundly, and redemptively. That is actually a magnificent manifestation of gospel culture. Gospel culture does not exclude correction, gospel culture dignifies correction, and makes it fruitful. i When, when, if I can believe confidently believe that you and TJ love me enough to help me see myself if I'm here If I have words or behavior or attitudes that are displeasing to the Lord or counterproductive with people, when I know you're going to talk to me, I relax. I feel accepted, I feel like I belong. So the ministry of correction is, is one of the wonderful surprising ways in which we convey our profound acceptance of a brother or sister in Christ. I was helped years ago by Luke 17, three wood that I had never paid attention to ever, and then it leapt off, leapt off the page at me for clauses, if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. John Stott, in his wonderful little book, confess your sins, has a brilliant section on Luke 17. Three. He says, if we can restore a sinning brother, sinning and unrepentant brother, that's not because we love him so much is because we love Him so little. Look what the Lord says, If your brother sins now, that does not say if your brother hacks you off, if he annoys you, if he just rubs you the wrong way. So this is not about a petty and selfish overreaction of array toward Sam, that's unfair to you, but if your brother sins, and you can go to chapter and verse in the Bible, because it's sin. It's a sin category. So you can see in Scripture that your brother has offended the Lord. If your brother sins, comma, second clause, rebuke him. It doesn't say scream at him. It doesn't say, belittle him. But what I think that means as you sit down with your brother, and you say this is an awkward conversation. And it's a little scary to me, and it might be problematic for you. But in our meeting on Tuesday night, when you said XYZ I was blindsided by that I didn't expect that of you. I think that was wrong. And here's why. And explain with scripture, why you think that was wrong in the sight of God. And you might even not that's a rebuke. It's it's calm, it is biblical, it's reasoned, it's it's filled with an explanation that might be acceptable to the person on the receiving end.
Sam Allberry
It's constructive, isn't it? Because you're actually trying to educate someone at that moment. Want to win him? Yeah. And I think so often, we hear the word rebuke, and we assume it means, you know, come down on someone like a ton of bricks. This is the and I think it's often the very point where Christian leaders can maybe without even realizing it, start lording it over other people. Yeah.
Ray Ortlund
It says if your brother sins not if your enemy sense, well, you will subordinate. Yeah. Yes. Big can and if he repents, so that's, that's when your brother listens to your your gentle, reasonable biblical rebuke. And it's gentle, reasonable, reasonable and biblical. Because this is Jesus talking. Yeah. And if he repents, and so he says, Wow, I kind of hate to admit it, but you've got a good point. I hadn't thought of it that way. I hadn't seen it that way. What was I thinking? Okay, I get it. I, it kind of kills me. But you're right. You're right. I wish boy, I'd love a do over on that one. So thank you for helping me see that and you have every right to expect me to change. Ah, boy, I, I am so sorry. And there might be some reconstruction in relationships that needs to happen, but That's repentance.
Sam Allberry
There's a similar sentiment in Second Timothy chapter two. Paul says, The Lord servant must not be quarrelsome. And that's a word for us today, isn't it? Yeah, but kind to everyone able to teach patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps, grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth. And they may come to their senses in Escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his well. So again, even where Paul is in is urging correction there. It's with gentleness and with a view to wanting it to have a positive outcome. It's not punitive. Its aim is restorative. That God may perhaps grant them repentance, they may come to their senses. And again, I've can't remember who said this to me, but it's been a helpful principle for me is always try to make it easy for someone to do the right thing. Yes. So try it, let's try to make it easy for someone to repent or something that we know they've done is wrong. And therefore, whatever correction or rebuke is necessary at that point, let's do it in a way that then makes it easy if they do come back to their senses to be restored to us, what's the phrase flying off the handle them that it's going to now make it really difficult for them ever to approach us again, but actually, which I think is why Paul says were to correct there with gentleness. So that if the person does think, oh, gosh, yeah, that I was right to be criticized on that. It's not them. We've not erected barriers to them coming back to us in a way that we've done that.
Ray Ortlund
Both Martin Luther and John Calvin have brilliant comments on Galatians, six, one, the gentleness of restoration. And Calvin points out that one of the ways that ministers injure people is by rebukes that are too severe. People are never helped by being cornered and pressured and embarrassed, especially publicly embarrassed. Who do we think we are? To do that to anybody, especially, for example, on Twitter, that is not where we correct one another. And when I see that kind of behavior on social media, I realize this person doing this, either the person I hope this person never becomes a pastor until this person grows up, or I hope this person is is so sort of marginalized in visibility and influence that their impact is minimized. Because this is when we beat one another up. That is not a denominational option. That is the opposite to Jesus Christ. It's not Christian, at all. And coming back to Luke 17. Three, the whole objective is, and if he repents, forgive him. So that's where the ministry of correction wants to go. So that's where in the awkward conversation, if your brother sins rebuke him, if he repents, then you say, Oh, well, thank you so much for just being open and so humble and reasonable. And thank you for receiving and considering what I've said, I really respect that. Not everybody would really be open to what I've tried to do here. And I just want you to know, this is so over, I forgive you, if this is done, this can get locked away in the vault of our sacred friendship. And I just respect you more than ever before. The the humble and godly way in which you've received this, this awkward and difficult message today,
Sam Allberry
I'm going to plays out like that, actually, that can deepen our friendship content. Absolutely.
Ray Ortlund
When two Christian men have that kind of moment together, they both walk away as really strong allies, shoulder to shoulder moving forward together with deep understandings of what it means to be brothers and what it means to be allies what it means to be men of God. There's not too much of that going around.
Sam Allberry
Right one other thought I've got on this is that particularly for pastors in the context of their church, I'm conflict averse. It sometimes it's easy to think I need to have that difficult conversation with someone they they did do something that was wrong. I you know, we should be doing this in person and not by email that guy letter as you need to be able to see. They need to see your face and hear your tone and hopefully, sense from your demeanor, the spirit in which yes, whatever correction is being offered, and an email can feel easier because you didn't enter the awkwardness of sitting down with someone and having that conversation but it can make it much worse. It's hard to be gentle in An email.
Ray Ortlund
Email is the crudest form of communication ever invented. As technology, it's brilliant. As human communication, it is crude and even primitive and destructive. A correction must never go through email must be face to face, as you say, that's really vital. And when we want to affirm and honor and compliment one another, that should be written, because then it can last people can keep that. But yeah, correction needs to be face to face. Because then you have real time interaction. If the person you're speaking to is beginning to misunderstand what you're saying, instead of trading three to five to 10 emails trying to realign with clarity. It takes three seconds. You just are you saying this under No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that. Oh, okay. I get it now. Yeah. That's very wise. Okay. crossway books is sponsoring. You're not crazy. This podcast with the gospel Coalition. We really respect the ministry of crossway books here are there are many wonderful Christian publishers. We have a special place in our heart for crossway because of their partnership with us here in this podcast. What's another crossway title that would you'd like to mention Sam? Yeah, I
Sam Allberry
a few years ago, someone gave me something called the ESV. I think it was called the salted devotion or or the Psalms devotional or something. Michelle Salter. I think that was the one yes, those words in that order. I remember using it and profiting from it and thinking this is great. Only then realized sometime later on the devotional parts of that Salter were written by by Dane, your son. And they've republished the Psalter now as as a book with Dane as this sort of listed author called In the Lord I take refuge. And it goes through every single one of the 150 Psalms, just a, you know, a few paragraphs on each. It's a short, devotional guide. But wonderful, and the Psalms are so comprehensive in their inner exploration of all the different things that we go through an experience and teaching us how to bring all of those things to the Lord in prayer. And that that devotional really helps us to, to use the Psalms in our own walk with the Lord in our own kind of processing of our own experiences. So I'd highly recommend that
Ray Ortlund
our den ortlund in the Lord, I take refuge by crossway, Calvin said of the Psalter that it puts before us and pulls us into the whole range of human experiences and emotions, and helps us to lift it all up to the Lord in prayer. So, this book by Dane could really help everybody start what if what if we went on a journey together every morning, taking 10 minutes to read a Psalm and and Danes comments there and give the entirety of our experience to lift it up to the Lord that would consecrate the scariest parts of our lives that we don't know what to do with. That's why it it says in the Lord, I take refuge. Yeah, so let's go there.
Sam Allberry
Because thank you so much for listening. We so appreciate it. See you next time.