In this episode, Ray Ortlund and Sam Allberry discuss the cost of building and sustaining gospel culture.
In this episode, Ray Ortlund and Sam Allberry discuss the cost of building and sustaining gospel culture.
- Introduction—where you’d really like to preach (and Ray Ortlund’s kilt. And bagpipes.)
- There’s a cost (4:08) - It’s not always going to be easy (6:27)
- Nullifying the grace of God (8:56)
- Time for some decisions (16:31)
- Not just icing on the cake (20:36)
- Linking arms together—contacting us for prayer (22:16)
- Recommended resource: ESV Expository Commentaries (22:58) https://www.crossway.org/articles/introducing-the-esv-expository-commentary-series/
Explore more from TGC on the topic of Gospel Culture and leadership. (https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/topics/gospel/)
To reach out directly to Ray and Sam with questions or prayer-related requests, please email notcrazy@tgc.org
We want to thank Crossway for helping to make this podcast possible. For more gospel-centered resources and Bibles visit Crossway.org
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Sam Allberry
Welcome back to You're Not Crazy, a podcast for young pastors from the Gospel coalition. I'm Sam Allberry. I'm joined as always by Ray Ortlund. Good to see you.
Ray Ortlund
Good to see you,
Sam Allberry
Sam. So here's a question to kick us off for fun. If you could be invited to preach anywhere in the world, why some pastor there? Where would you love to be invited to go? So
Ray Ortlund
this is hint hint, guys. Come on, give me a break. Okay, either two places, either somewhere in the Outer Hebrides off the west coast of Scotland, or maybe New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, where there might be an elk hunt connected with the Sunday ministry. So yeah, that's it, it would be impossible to decline such an invitation. How about you, Sam?
Sam Allberry
Well, I would join you with the Outer Hebrides that that part of the world does something to my soul that no one else does. So if anyone wants to invite me to the Isle of Lewis or the Isle of Harris, I will be there in a shot. And I think I've always wanted to get in New Zealand I was meant to go last year and but then if you know there was a pandemic, so I couldn't...
Ray Ortlund
I heard something about Yeah,
Sam Allberry
it well, actually joking apart. We live in Tennessee, it would be quite easy not to refer to the pen. But I was so pumped to be going to New Zealand. So that's still a place I'm really I biking. I
Ray Ortlund
wonder if there are places like the Isle of Harris and New Zealand and so forth that are the Lord's sort of prophetic whisper to us of something of what the New Earth is going to be like.
Sam Allberry
Yeah, maybe it's slightly less interesting. I went to Nova Scotia, more speaking at a actually TGC Atlantic Canada event. And for great Nova Scotia, they called it Nova Scotia because it reminded them of the old Scotia so this will this will make me feel all like Hebridean and my soul will feel back home. But it's just not like Scotland. So that was disappointing Nova Scotia lovely place and lots of other respects. We both love
Ray Ortlund
Scotland yearly.
Sam Allberry
So and the further north and west and wet the better actually.
Ray Ortlund
We get the the islands and mountains and it's a special place in my heart for the Aberdeen area and Royal Deeside.
Sam Allberry
We because you did your
Ray Ortlund
did my doctoral work there we lived in a village just up the valley there banchory. And we kind of felt like we had died and gone to heaven if if there is such a thing and felt immensely privileged to live there for four years. And there was not a single day in those four years. We did not enjoy.
Sam Allberry
Wow, it was amazing. Hey, true or false. You bought a kilt have a kilt from that time.
Ray Ortlund
yes to both of the above and in feet. Indeed. I took piping less
Sam Allberry
I was going to ask that as well. And he tried to play the the
Ray Ortlund
sister to the Piper to the Queen was my teacher. Oh, wow. Yeah. Precious Lee, he
Sam Allberry
must have been really good. Oh, no. But is this why no one has ever heard you play the bagpipes since Exactly. But
Ray Ortlund
I promise I will never do it again.
Sam Allberry
Well, I remember reading the definition of a gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipes. But
Ray Ortlund
then I'm not quite the gentleman because I really can't, and you do.
Sam Allberry
Excellent. There's no natural way of getting from bagpipes to gospel culture. Which is probably a good thing. But we're thinking this is our last episode of this season of you're not crazy. So
Ray Ortlund
thank you for all you've poured into this
Sam Allberry
brief all I've all I've done is sit across from you and enjoy being with you. So thank you for having me. Thanks, TGC for letting us play in your house as well. We've been we want to draw some threads together in this episode, right and think about how, think about the cost involved with gospel culture. We've we've kind of tried to cast a vision with honesty on our time, all those sorts of things. And I'm sure a lot of people are dialed into that vision and it should and does get the juices flowing. But we don't know imply that it's inevitable and that it's just easy. That you know, you just need to reach out to one another and showing honor and your church will immediately jump on board and you can just you know, ride off into the sunset together. There can be a cost to pastors in trying to cultivate gospel culture, but we believe it's a cost worth bearing and we'll get into what that cost can look like. Precisely because the cost of not doing it is so much more serious. There's a passage She has a mind on this. Tell us about Yes. Well, before we go there, in fact,
Ray Ortlund
you just prompted a new thoughts, Sam of. And I think it's important to say this to every young pastor who is with us now, my dad used to put it this way as a pastor in relation to the church, the congregation that you're serving and leading one step ahead, you're a leader, two steps ahead of the people. You're a visionary, three steps ahead, you're a martyr. So, the trick in pastoral ministry, one of the tricks is to stay one to two steps ahead. So you really can lead with visionary impact, but you don't get so far out ahead, that you generate such distress in the congregation that they just can't absorb it, I think of pastoral ministry, as disappointing people at a rate they can absorb. So let's just be self aware. And realize there's there's a pastor listening to this right now, who is thinking, to turn this church toward because people bring into church a sort of pre understanding of what church quote unquote, is supposed to be. And rarely is that a gospel culture paradigm. Yeah. So to turn a church around, it might take five years, it might take 10 years, it might take 20 years. But it is so worth doing. Because as you said a moment ago, the cost of not doing it is far greater.
Sam Allberry
Let's think about the cost of doing it first, okay. It's not always going to be easy. People aren't always going to want to have what we're describing as gospel culture. I mean, it threatens power basis, it threatens people's reputations, because again, we're asking people to to complain, every somebody said to me, once every church has its mafia, the question is not whether it has one. But where is it? Who is the Matthew, in your any any given church, sometimes it's the leadership, sometimes it's a couple of very powerful families, but there will always be someone with some vested interest, and the call to repentance and to honesty and to being low before the Lord will not fit the agenda that some people have for church, some people go to church precisely because it's where they finesse their reputation for being respectable. And every every pastor has to pay a price in his own soul.
Ray Ortlund
I mean, let's, let's admit it, Sam, there's so much self importance inside every one of us, and face saving and pride, and a desire for prominence, and a profound resistance to confession and so forth. I really need reality to break my way. Yeah. And if it doesn't, then it's not just regrettable something is going wrong, and somebody is going to pay I mean, that's my psychology as I enter into many situations, let's all admit that's who we are. That's, that's inside us. Let's forsake it and condemn it. Now, the cost then, well, the passage, in my opinion about gospel culture, the best, most compelling passage in the entire New Testament that we haven't even talked about yet. Galatians 211 through 21, Galatians 211 through 21. It's a complicated passage to unravel. But this passage has been messing with me literally for almost 50 years now. And the conclusion of the passage in verse 21, the apostle Paul says this, I do not nullify the grace of God. Now, matron jagras, a matron in his commentary on Galatians says, that is the key verse in the entire letter to the Galatians. I do not nullify the grace of God. The apostle Paul felt that that needed to be said he wanted to make his own position clear. I do not nullify the grace of God. Apparently, we need to hear that appearance. Sorry, go ahead. Well,
Sam Allberry
the implication is, it's very easy to nullify the grace of God even when you're if you're an apostle without
Ray Ortlund
even realizing it. That is what's so sort of arresting and unsettling about this passage, nullifying the grace of God isn't just a Roman Catholic problem. It isn't just a sort of a, you know, a sectarian problem out there. You know, the bad league lists out there. In the first century, nullifying the grace of God was an EPA systolic problem. Because Paul is addressing Peter john Stott, in his commentary on this says this is the most tense and dramatic episode among Christian leaders in all the New Testament, the apostle Paul confronts publicly confronts the Apostle Peter, over a violation of gospel culture Peter had been welcoming Gentile converts into his heart into his friendship into his fellowship into the church. He had been eating with them. He was probably eating ham sandwich. with them, and for a Jewish, amen steeped in Jewish tradition and Jewish Christianity, traditional Christianity, so and we would say, that was a bold move to make. And Peter accepted it because the Lord had spoken to him. In Acts chapter 10, you know, the sheet that came down from heaven, the vision and so forth. We all know the story. And God made it very clear. By the way, Sam, isn't it fascinating it acts chapter two, Peter preaches a sermon under the anointing of the Holy Spirit, and 1000s of people are converted. But just because God's super blessed his ministry, that doesn't mean that Peter had nothing more to learn. It wasn't until chapter 10 of the book of Acts, that Peter finally saw that Gentile converts are his equals in Christ, they did not have to accept Christ and Jewishness. Yeah, they did not have to accept the gospel in Jewish packaging. All they needed to belong is Jesus received with the empty hands of faith. And Peter deeply accepted that then here years later in Antioch, he betrays gospel doctrine and gospel culture. He stopped identifying with stops eating with stops, hop stops hobnobbing and befriending gentle converts because he's under pressure from hyper traditional Jewish believers in Jerusalem. affection, came to Antioch to pressure Peter into withdrawing from these new Gentile converts and Peter caved. Even Barnabas caved. Paul calls it hypocrisy. Paul calls it fear. It was church politics.
Sam Allberry
It was not gospel down just verse 14 is just waving at me right now. He says when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, which is exactly the thing we've been trying to think through over the course of this podcast is his conduct that reflects the truth of the gospel, you can you can ascend to the truth of the gospel, and yet conduct yourself in a way that contradicts it. That is
Ray Ortlund
unsettling. Yeah. And when Paul confronts Peter, he doesn't tell him to change his behavior. Paul, in effect tells him You don't really accept justification by faith alone. In other words, the apostle Paul saw the conduct of Peter and Barnabas and the others, that their conduct was not in step with in line with aligned with the truth of the gospel. And he saw that conduct as a betrayal of gospel doctrine, gospel culture undermined, is not a failure of niceness. It's a betrayal of the doctrine. Yeah, so maybe we're not as orthodox as we think we are. It'll be up our behavior,
Sam Allberry
more than our statements that shows what we truly believe. That's right. And it's interesting, you know, Paul talks about Peter fearing the circumcision party, it's, it's something like that when
Ray Ortlund
the chips are down, something is truly laid bare about our own hearts. It shows which of all the things that we say we believe, actually, which are the ones Trump on the other end, Paul concludes his clarifying of the real issues at stake by saying I do not nullify the grace of God, Peter, the apostle, had been nullifying the grace of God, oh, my goodness, Sam, who do we think we are to nullify in effect, nullify the grace of God, if it's the grace of God, we're here to revere it, not nullify it. Let's have a sense of ourselves and humble ourselves and really believe what we believe and follow through with gospel culture to put it in, in formulaic and somewhat abstract categories, the vertical transforms the horizontal gospel doctrine, transforms gospel relationships.
Sam Allberry
So where where there is a lack of horizontal transformation is an indication that the vertical hasn't actually been received, as we think and
Ray Ortlund
yes, and when Peter was and Barnabas and the others were violating the truth of justification by faith alone, they were not merging into a you're going off into, you know, liberal Christianity denying the Bible. They were not explicitly forsaking the doctrine of justification by faith alone. They had no idea what they were doing. in their heart of hearts, they were honestly conscientiously they, they would have ticked all the right boxes theologically, and Paul comes and says, You're acting as if there is no such thing as justification by faith alone. Who do you think you are to nullify the grace of God? Oh, Sam, it's so unsettling. What if? What if 1000s of our churches across the country right now are nullifying the grace of God as Peter did without even realize? And he
Sam Allberry
did it? Let's, let's face it, he did it by who he ate with and who he didn't eat with something as seemingly innocuous as that can actually contradict the significance
Ray Ortlund
of our treatment of one another, far exceeds our awareness of that of those relationships. It's the very people that are being pushed out to the margins by the hyper conservative, hyper traditional, you. Yes, yes, yes, you've got to accept Jesus, but you got to accept Jesus aren't that become like us to be that is those, those are the very people we need to be alert to. And the ones they're pushing out to the margins. Let's go gather them in Yeah, with all the more sincerity and gladness of heart, and assurances that we are in this together, then we're both preaching gospel doctrine and embodying gospel culture. So in my mind's eye, Sam, what I'm seeing is, and I think in this episode, it's time for me it's time for you and every young pastor listening, I think it's time for us to make some decisions. Okay, we've had this the privilege of this podcast series, and I'm very grateful for it. But let's not leave it at the level of the hypothetical. We have some decisions to make. So in my mind's eye, I'm seeing I'm seeing Peter here in the center of this mental picture. And over to one side is the Apostle Paul, and over on the other side, are the the circumcision faction. And every young pastor is in Peters position, under pressure from certain groups and strong personalities and so forth to kind of reshape the culture of their church in such a way that certain people are just kept out. And that's on the one side, on the other side, here's the Apostle Paul, saying, but wait a minute, what about justification by faith alone, and every young pastor has to decide which way is going to go. Now, again, you're one step ahead. You're a leader, two steps ahead. You're a visionary three steps ahead, you're a martyr. So you have to lead your church with respectful sensitivity to what they can absorb at any given moment. But you must also every young pastor, I'm speaking to you now, young pastor, you got to make up your mind, what kind of man you're going to be and what you're going to stand for, and how, perhaps slowly, but inexorably, you're going to guide that church and help that church turn a corner, such that the doctrines they formally profess and subscribe to translate into the inclusive, generous, honest, gentle, cheerful, courageous culture, like the early church that will compel the attention of your city. But if you cave and settle for institutional management, only, the apostle Paul, through your conscience is going to tap you on the shoulder and, and remind you wait a minute. What about the finished work of Christ on the cross? What What about the all sufficiency of your Savior? What about imputed righteousness? What about faith alone? What about justification by faith alone? These are not denominational options. This is Christianity. young pastor Are you going to stand take your stand for Christianity for Christ, right where you are. And maybe here's a crazy thought. Maybe you need to get down on your knees and your study before this day is over, and give your life to Christ all over again. Give your ministry to Christ. Give your future to Christ. Give your reputation to Christ and say, Lord, I am here for you. guide me, according to your truth into the green pastures and still waters of gospel culture, for this church where you have placed me helped me, keep me keep me from sin. Keep me close to your heart. I'm all in. I'm going to need you moment by moment to be gently brave and unstoppable. For the display of your glory in this place. I'm all Help me take my next step. Amen. Why wouldn't any pastor want to pray that way like today, it's,
Sam Allberry
it's another way of resolving to fear God more than man. And I think God's promise to Joshua Be strong and courageous. For I'm with you, there are going to be some giants in the land who look intimidating and all powerful. But actually, if God is with us, then we we can prevail,
Ray Ortlund
we will prevail. And indeed, we will prevail by suffering, and suffering loss, cheerfully.
Sam Allberry
That may actually be how the victory happens minded.
Ray Ortlund
So we're all in.
Sam Allberry
So gospel culture is not the icing on the cake, gospel culture, I'm not taking an analogy too far, which preachers never do is, is the cake itself, what the ingredients of gospel doctrine end up producing, so hope, if nothing else, people are thinking, gospel culture isn't just an idealized form of church that we can attain to, but it's just, you know, got to live in the real world is never going to happen. It's an entailment of the gospel itself, and our own, rather the credibility of our churches, or stand and fall with the presence or absence of gospel culture
Ray Ortlund
and our own faithfulness. To me, this redefines the category faithfulness, simply preaching the Bible accurately. And upholding the categories of systematic theology accurately, is not the whole of faithfulness. I look at Galatians 211 through 21. And I realize faithfulness includes that and following through translating those truths into the beauties of human relationships, where anyone through Christ alone can enter in and belong, and there's no pressure put upon them to conform to any group, or any history or any tradition or culture they come in as they are, with Christ alone. And immediately they belong, that when we're both preaching the message of Christ, and building the Community of Christ in that way, then we are faithful, fully faithful, not half faithful,
Sam Allberry
right? We haven't talked about this, but I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say it anyway. We, you know, those who are listening, and who are really wanting to move forward with this, there will be a way of contacting us will will just announce that there is a way of contacting us and it will somehow happen, it will be in the show notes somewhere. We will have to pray for you. So there are folks there who are wanting to take these steps. I'm we're our greatest pros that you will have people on the ground so that you can link arms with because you know that that makes all the difference in the world. But if we can just pray for you, we would love to do that. So if you if you want to get in touch, let us know who you are and where you are. We'll pray for you. How about excellent,
Ray Ortlund
great idea. Sam, thank you for that. No, we want to thank our friends who at crossway books who have sponsored this entire series of podcasts Wait, we love and admire and respect and trust our friends at crossway books. And you have a crossway publication you want to commend to our friends
Sam Allberry
I do. Many of us will have multiple series of commentaries that we dip in and out of a newer series that crossway has been producing in the last couple of years has a couple of things going for it that the most immediately apparent thing it has going for it is just how how handsome The books are to look at is the ESV expository commentary. There's there's I think 12 volumes overall, they haven't all come out yet. They are really smartly done. So let's just go where the exterior before we talk about the interior, they've done a great job, these things look really nice on the shelf. But thankfully, they're also pretty good on the inside as well. These are expository commentaries, and so they're written by people who on the whole our pastor scholars, not just people who are academics only but people who are academics who have enough ministry, experience to know what you're needing to get from a commentary there not just too many commentaries or academics talking to other academics, and preachers trying to listen in and kind of understand the conversation and then figure out what it has to do with Sunday morning sermon.
Ray Ortlund
This book is really written for preachers. This series is really written for preachers but by people who, who really do know their stuff. It's really useful, expository commentary, I'm going to guess that any young pastor who gets hold of these volumes might find that they become the first commentary he reaches for as he's, you know, ramping up for
Sam Allberry
requests. The other benefit is that I found my use of them so far that they're the right kind of length. If I want to read a commentary on half a dozen versus I Not having to read 80 pages. It's the right kind of depth to really help you begin to orient yourself into the world of the text and what's going on. And so, yeah, I
Ray Ortlund
agree, I totally agree with you sound ESV expository commentary strongly enthusiasts highly recommend now, young pastor, here's what we're saying, You're not crazy. You're out there, living for Christ, serving for Christ, laying it on the line, your wife is with you in it. You're paying a price. And sometimes you wonder, am I making any difference? is this doing any good? And sometimes you might feel exhausted, you might feel defeated. We have all been there, haven't we? Yeah. And so Sam and I are just here to say that we respect you. We value what you're doing. Please keep going. never quit. It's always too soon to quit. And just take your need to your Risen Christ above, moment by moment. Thank you for giving us the privilege of being your friends and conversation partners through this series of podcasts, and we look forward to meeting you personally, maybe at a gospel coalition national conference, or or somewhere else. The Lord,
Sam Allberry
thank you so much for listening again, do contact us. We'd love to hear your feedback. And we're grateful again to the gospel Coalition for allowing us to have a podcast on this and one more thing.
Ray Ortlund
There is a third guy sitting here he has had to endure all these episodes and has rescued us with his kind editing along the way. Andrew Laparra is am I pronouncing your last name correctly? Right. Andrew Laparra, what kind of name is Laparra? Spanish name? Okay. Andrew is our engineer, sound guru, technical genius. Who has rescued us from having to know anything or understand anything about this, we just sit down he's done all the hardest. There's
Sam Allberry
about 78 miles of wires around connected to things I don't understand. He's got a thing in front of them looks like NASA uses to kind of guide shuttles and things. So, Andrew, thank you for honestly for for being an amazing servant. See you guys. Bye.
Ray Ortlund
We know you have a ton to do these days. And so it means a lot to us that you would listen to the podcast. Thank you for listening to this episode of You're Not Crazy: Gospel Sanity for Young Pastors. Do visit tgc.org slash podcasts for more episodes and it would be great if you'd subscribe to our show on Apple podcast. Thank you for doing that Spotify wherever you listen wherever you hang out. Thanks.