Ray Ortlund and Sam Allberry discuss the role of positivity in the life of a pastor and how to build positivity in a world that would prefer cynicism.
In this episode of “You’re Not Crazy,” Ray Ortlund and Sam Allberry discuss the role of positivity in the life of a pastor and how to build positivity in a world that would prefer cynicism.
• Introductions (0:00)
• Best book in the last 10 years (1:02)
• Staying positive in a cynical world (6:34)
• Resourcing positivity (9:25)
• Irritating Scripture (14:02)
• Getting more granular (17:31)
• Recommended resource: A Dozen Things God Did with Your Sin by Sam Storms (19:33)
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Ray Ortlund
If we actually believe the gospel, if we are so audacious, as to believe Isaiah nine, and Matthew 16, and Matthew 28, then why don't we have the honesty, to accept Philippians? Four, four, and rejoice in the Lord always again, I will say rejoice, the man who wrote that was in prison. The people who wrote that, too. We're facing some significant challenges in their cultural moment. Sam, what if? What if we so believe the gospel that we rejoice our way through the gates of hell, into the deepest places of Darkness?
Sam Allberry
Welcome to you're not crazy gospel sanity for young pastors part of the gospel coalition podcast network. Is that right?
Ray Ortlund
And you are Sam Allberry.
Sam Allberry
I'm Sam, Allberry, and who are you?
Ray Ortlund
I'm Ray ortlund.
Sam Allberry
Good. Good. Good to have you. Right, we are thinking today about
Ray Ortlund
Wait, wait, hold everything. Yeah, no, I want to ask you a question. What is the best book you've read in the last 10 years? And why?
Sam Allberry
There's probably a, an objective answer to that if I go away and think about it for a few weeks. But right now, the book that leaps to mind, and it's a recent one. And I was studying about this the other day, Julian Hardiman has written a book called Jesus lover of my soul. Looking at the Song of Songs, and what it shows us about the the heart of the bridegroom, that we are being pursued, and we are desired by by Christ, he is the lover of our souls, I needed that book, Ray
Ray Ortlund
said, What is it about us? Why is it so hard for us to believe that Christ does love us and desire us?
Sam Allberry
I think it's because we so many of us inclined towards self loathing. We see the negatives in our lives. We don't necessarily see the God given image bearing glories in our lives. And so it's just easier to think, Well, God, I mean, I can sort of half believed the gospel, if I turn the gospel into God has found a way to tolerate me, yes, and not just wipe me out, I can just about believe that. But the idea that the Christ Himself, loves me is drawn to me, desires me pursues me. That is so alien to my native way of thinking. And Julian's book was so refreshing because it's there in the Bible, it's hard to avoid it. And, you know, for me being being single as well, that added another dimension of urgency to why I needed to hear that message. Because the gospel the world has, for me is a gospel of if you're not romantically fulfilled, you are a loser. And so there's voices in our culture, saying to me every single day that I'm wasting my life, that I'm a colossal loser. So if it's not true that Jesus is actually pursuing me and drawing me into a Divine Romance and an intimacy, I will not find anywhere on this planet. I'm not going to make it. I needed that book. So much. So grateful for it.
Ray Ortlund
Julian Hartman, Jesus, lover of my soul, yeah. That came out in 2021. I mean, it's a new book, isn't it?
Sam Allberry
It is a new book. Yeah, I read it. Just recently.
Ray Ortlund
Yeah. Julian is pastor at Eaton Baptist Church in Cambridge, England. Yep. Wonderful, man. Yep. First straight guy. He was one of my students at Trinity. He was one of the best students I ever had.
Sam Allberry
Wow. Yeah. Wow. Same question for you, Ray.
Ray Ortlund
Okay, last 10 years, I would say JW Brady, England, before and after Westlake? Oh, yeah. Came out in in 1938 200 years after the conversion of Wesleyan 1738. And it's very simple, but it's well researched. It's a serious work of, of history. He paints the picture of England before the first Great Awakening. Then he secondly, he describes the first Great Awakening in the 1740s. Then he paints the picture of England after the first Great Awakening and what Britain experienced and the American colonies was a culture Why'd human upgrade. It didn't create heaven on earth. But the culture became more humane as the gods fool saturated the culture with saving power. And it really the book encouraged me England before and after Wesley because sometimes I become downhearted. I think that I love my country, but we are in a mess. And, and so that book reminded me, God has this and he can pour out an awakening at any time. And that would be a culture wide upgrade and would renew the nation. Jesus is not out to save America. But as he works in his church, and through us the salt of the earth in the light of the world, the historic reality is, nations have been greatly blessed and more humanized through the impact of the gospel. I saw that in that wonderful book.
Sam Allberry
Yeah, we read that together a couple of years ago now. And that that book really lifted my spirits because again, there are so many things to be discouraged about in the Western world. I hadn't realized how bleak things were before Wesley, I knew it wasn't great. I knew England was not a particularly spiritual place, but I had not realized how comprehensively dark it was. And so as as we see, many evidences of aspects of Western culture getting darker now, it just gets you gets me excited, because I think okay, this is we're in the before section of some book that's still being written.
Ray Ortlund
Oh, man, that is so heartening, in leads, it leads to our topic today.
Sam Allberry
Yeah. Which is, is staying positive. So many things around us re are encouraging us to be cynical, and bitter and angry and disappointed. And there's no shortage of things to fuel those, those emotions. But we're not meant to be people of, of bitterness and cynicism in the Lord. We're meant to be people who are rejoicing in the Lord. So the question is, how do we how do we stay positive?
Ray Ortlund
Yes. And the people this is this podcast is primarily for for pastors, the people coming to our churches have every right to look at us and be able to think, well, here's an honest man, this pastor, here's, he's living real life the way I am living real life. And it looks as though he's found some answers. Yeah, they have every right to look at me, and have that thought have warrant for that thought. So staying positive in a world of darkness and so forth. Okay, I just thought of this a few minutes ago, this wonderful quote from Martin Luther. From 1730, he wrote a letter to fill up my length and fill up my lengthen was 1730 I'm sorry, 1530. Thank you, June 27 1530, to be exact. And my lengthen was a more tender hearted, sensitive kind of man, than Martin Luther Corson, everyone was more sensitive. So, so Luther says at one point is in his letter of length, and I pray for you very earnestly, and I am deeply pained that you keep sucking up cares like a leech, and thus rendering my prayers vain. Christ knows whether it comes from stupidity or the Holy Spirit. But I for my part, I'm not very much troubled about our cause. Indeed, I am much more hopeful than I expected to be. God who was able to raise the dead is also able to uphold his cause when it is falling, or to raise it up again when it has fallen, or to move it forward when it is standing. If we are not worthy instruments to accomplish his purpose, he will find others if we are not strengthened by His promises, where in all the world are the people to whom those promises apply? But more of this another time, after all, my writing, this is like pouring water into the sea.
Sam Allberry
That's what you really think Martin? Yeah.
Ray Ortlund
Okay, so he was a tough customer. But for the not only the Martin Luther is but the Phillip mill lengthens the more sensitive nature, pastors of this world. What warrants do we have for optimism? What resources do we have Sam, what comes to mind?
Sam Allberry
Yeah, I'm staring at Matthew 16, verse 18, where, where Jesus says to Peter, I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. It's a first I often come back to because whatever else is going on in the world around us, Jesus will build his church and what encourages me about that verse is the church is not a hobby to Jesus is not some side project. You and I have a mutual friend who He has has been for a very long time redoing the front of his house. In the little bits and snippets of time he can he can kind of give to it. And it's taking him longer than he thought it would. This is not like that Jesus is not doing this on the side of his day job. Building the church is Jesus passion project, because the church is his bride. So this is not something he can only do for a couple of hours on a Saturday morning, in his garage or something, this is, this is where his heart is. And I'm ashamed at how how long it took me to notice this, but when Jesus says, The gates of hell shall not prevail against it, I always read that as whatever the whatever the devil throws at the church, the church will withstand it. Except the gate is not a weapon. A gate is a defense. So it's not, you know, we're just gonna have to grit our teeth and stay there and we won't, we won't be wiped out by the devil, he is saying the gates of hell won't prevail against us. So in other words, we're meant to be the ones who on the offensive here spiritually, and that the devil is going to lose property and people to the Church that Jesus Christ is building, because if he's building it, there's nothing that the devil has that will get in the way of Jesus accomplishing His purposes. So I love that because it can often look and feel in that little corner of the world that we're familiar with as though things aren't going Jesus way. But they are
Ray Ortlund
yes, everything is. He said, All authority in heaven. And on earth is a given to me, ie, everything is going by Yeah, yeah. I think we're always in one of two cultural moments, either. We're in a moment when the gospel is surging forward. As in the first Great Awakening, as in the Jesus movement that I saw when I was in my early 20s. Or were in a cultural moment, when the Lord is preparing the conditions for the next great gospel surge. We look at the rise of Islam in our own time. We look at the politicized radicalized sexuality of our times. We look at these various, you know, the the bizarre, anti Christian, but claiming to be Christian nationalism of our time, there are just insanities in our world, and we are buffeted by these, we are alarmed by these we are concerned for people for souls for our nation, and so forth. But in that moment, what's really happening at the deepest level is God is rearranging social conditions. getting us ready for the next gospel search. Yeah. So we're always in the midst of gospel advance, or we are witnessing God in his sovereignty, rearrange things for the next gospel advanced, but wherever we are, we have the sacred privilege, I deeply believe of investing directly even in in our cultural moment at its worst. We have the sacred privilege of investing directly in the next great awakening.
Sam Allberry
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Isaiah nine I've mentioned this in a previous episode, I think of the increase of His government and of peace, there will be no end. There is no time when the reign of Jesus is not increasing. And then to cap it off, the zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this. The Lord of hosts is the Lord of all the armies, the Lord of all will power. If he's zealous for this, we don't need to worry.
Ray Ortlund
That's right. In Philippians, four, four, can be a really irritating verse of scripture. Really annoying. Fingernails on the chalkboard. Rejoice in the Lord always again, I will say rejoice. Why does that rubbed me the wrong way? Because in my there's something about me that likes to complain.
Sam Allberry
You'd make a good Englishman. I'm never happier than me has something something about.
Ray Ortlund
And that verse is challenging my murmuring spirit. When in my view, nothing is ever good enough. There is no really solid reason for encouragement, and I should certainly never rejoice my full head off. I'll only end up looking stupid. That is, why don't I just come out and say I don't believe the gospel. And be honest about it. If we actually believe the gospel, if we are so audacious, as to believe, Isaiah nine, and Matthew 16, and Matthew 28, and we could come up with 1000 passages, if we had the time right now, then why don't we have the honesty, to accept Philippians? Four, four, and rejoice in the Lord always again, I will say rejoice, the man who wrote that was in prison, the people who wrote that, too, we're facing some significant challenges in their cultural moment. Sam, what if? This is a crazy idea? What if we so believe the gospel that we rejoice our way through the gates of hell, into the deepest places of darkness, where redemption is the most relevant, and wonderful, and
Sam Allberry
I wonder if we will get through to those places without rejoicing our way there? I think rejoicing is going to be one of the ways that we we penetrate the places of darkness.
Ray Ortlund
Well, people who are cynical, look smart, and informed and cool. But they don't look Christian.
Sam Allberry
They don't look happy.
Ray Ortlund
So why don't we just humble ourselves and admit that if Jesus is who he says he is, if he has all authority in heaven and on earth, then we will just accept him that maybe we pastors need to accept him first and foremost, and just let our hair down and rejoice. Because it says Rejoice in the Lord. As long as the Lord is the Lord, we have a reason to rejoice.
Sam Allberry
If Jesus hasn't quit today, yeah, then we're good.
Ray Ortlund
Yeah. And kind of putting our foot down and saying, No, I will not rejoice. Because I don't, okay, everything's going your way. But not everything's, everything's going my way, Lord, way to go arranging my life, and so forth. When, okay, we all have reasons for tears. We all have reasons for sadness, but we never have a reason to reject Him, and have an attitude toward him. So maybe, maybe there are some of us pastors right now who need to just sort of get down on our faces before the Lord and, and repent for a sour attitude. Yeah.
Sam Allberry
Some of those verses and trees we thought about are kind of high altitude truths. Another way to stay positive for me is, is a much more granular level. A few years ago, when I was certainly struggling Ray, you sent me a message, which I screenshot it because it meant so much to me and come back to it every once in a while, where you you commended to me to see the glory of God in everyday things, colors, faces, tastes, and so on. And there's an element of that as well isn't there actually is is seeing and appreciating just the low key ordinary day to day instantiations of God's glory that we you know, walking down the street, a stunning tree and all it's kind of full glory is to think, yeah, that those can be little tokens to us that there really is a good God in charge of the universe. However much pain we're going through in our immediate moments.
Ray Ortlund
Well, he's not too proud to locate his glory, down in the simple things of everyday life. So we shouldn't be above enjoying the display of that glory. Yeah. Well, taking a walk with a friend. A really great cup of coffee in the morning. As you say, the autumn colors in the trees. Being with a friend. We know on this side of COVID-19 how glorious it is. Just to be together. The simple presence of a Christian friend, what a gift. The Lord is in this Yeah.
Sam Allberry
Dare I dare I say Ray, the gift for some people have a dog.
Ray Ortlund
Absolutely. So I just can't tell Nixie enough how much I love her. She's. Yeah, she's always ready to receive more iteration and spoiling. Okay, crossway books as has benefited all of us. Those Those of us who are involved in in producing, you're not crazy and those of us who enjoy listening to it, we all owe them a debt of gratitude. crossway books does great work. Sam, what's the title about from crossway that you're interested in?
Sam Allberry
You're gonna look this up because I get it wrong and it's a long title. So a friend of ours Sam storms you I've known Sam for many years, I've met him only a handful of times, but have loved his his ministry, his posture, His disposition, I've read some of his other books and really appreciate his ministry. He has a book coming out called a dozen things God did with your sin, and three things he'll never do. And from what I know of Sam, and from what I see in that title, that's going to be a great book for us to read a dozen things God did with your sin. And three things he'll never do. And I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that I bet the three things you'll never, never do are the things I'm most likely to believe. Yes. And the dozen things he has done are going to be the things I'm less likely to believe. So we need that.
Ray Ortlund
Yeah, We Never Outgrow the gospel. Night. Yeah. So and we both feel indebted to Sam. I have known I've known Sam since the 1970s. When we were in seminary together. Sam is one of the best pastor theologians I've ever known. He has a great mind, and is a capacious mind, but has a great heart and is a wonderful preacher and pastor. So here is a book by a significant theologian who is also a wise pastor on a vital topic. Whenever you find a great author and a great topic coming together in a book, that book is worth reading. Give us the title one more time, Sam.
Sam Allberry
A dozen things God did with your sin, and three things he'll never do sandstorms.
Ray Ortlund
Great looking forward to that. Thanks, guys. God bless.