Ray Ortlund and Sam Allberry discuss the essential tenets of Christian leadership—what it is and what it isn't.
Season 2 of “You’re Not Crazy” launches with a lively conversation between Ray Ortlund and Sam Allberry discussing what makes Christian leadership distinctly “Christian.”
• Introduction—why is anyone even listening? One great experience from the last year (00:00)
• Answering the main questions (6:02)
• Gentle and lowly, like Jesus (7:26)
• The opposite of that (8:39)
• It’s not a strategy (10:00)
• Christian leadership is not leadership that advances Christian orthodoxy (11:57)
• PR for Jesus (15:25)
• The arch-enemy of authentic ministry (16:43)
• It’s emotional and relational (19:06)
• Recommended Resource: Letters Along the Way: From a Senior Saint to a Junior Saint Explore more from TGC on the topic of Spiritual Leadership.
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Ray Ortlund
When we Christian leaders take one facet of Christ, one angle of vision on Christ, one part of Christ, and magnify that make that the theme of our ministry make that our brand, make that our message and parlay that one aspect of Christ into a ministry. That’s not Christian. My point is that truly Christian leadership will not limit itself to branding, exploiting, developing a following. By pressing, pressing, pressing on one issue, or one doctrine, or one aspect of the real Christ, but we will hold ourselves responsible to the to the more demanding task, the more thrilling task of entering into exploring daring to believe in the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.
Sam Allberry
Welcome back to your not crazy podcast hosted by the gospel coalition. I’m with Ray ortlund. Hi, Ray. Hi, how are you? Sam? I’m very well, right? Well, this is season two, I still can’t quite believe season one happened.
Ray Ortlund
Why is anybody listening?
Sam Allberry
We are very grateful to those of you who who have been listening. And we’ve loved hearing from many of you. Thank you, to those of you who’ve written to us, some of you have shared something of your own situation, your own hopes, prayer needs. And it’s been a privilege to hear some of your stories. So thank you for sending those things in.
Ray Ortlund
We’re very grateful. And it’s a privilege to for Sam and me, to have this moment with you. It really matters. We believe in your ministry. You’re not crazy. To live for Christ. You’re not crazy to stick your neck out. You’re not crazy to hang in there. You’re not crazy to have a dream in your heart of a great movement of God in your generation. You’re so not crazy. You just hang in there. And let’s walk together for a while.
Sam Allberry
Sounds good to me. Ray since we had our last season, what’s one great experience you’ve had?
Ray Ortlund
Well, in, let’s see, early November, Jenny and I were confirmed as members of the Anglican Communion by Bishop Clark lowenfield and the Diocese of the Western gulf coast down to Houston. And that was a sacred moment. i It was a surprise to us really, that, you know, our journey has led us there. But the Lord was very much in it. And, and you and I love Bishop Clark.
Sam Allberry
He is wonderful man.
Ray Ortlund
Oh gosh, he is an amazing man of God. I’ll go into battle with him any day. So that was how about you, Sam? What’s some remarkable experience since we were together last week, I
Sam Allberry
was gonna say something quite banal, compared to. I’ve been paddleboarding for years. Which was great fun. I had the opportunity of being in Dubai in October with Redeemer church Dubai, one of the pastors there took me out first thing in the morning before it got hot to go paddleboarding. I’ve never done that before, but it was beautiful. The water is lovely and warm, which is good, because you get into it a few times if you’re trying to paddle I discovered. But it was beautiful. We had the city skyline as a backdrop, and it was one of those moments of just of great joy. Going back to your confirmation Ray, what is what does it mean? You becoming an Anglican and what doesn’t it mean?
Ray Ortlund
What it does mean is that I come under the father Lee, ministry and headship of Bishop Clark. Because I’ve already aligned theologically with the 39 articles, which are a fantastic reformation doctrinal statement. the Westminster Confession of Faith, borrowed from the 39 articles when it was being composed. And anyway, I come under that ministry and now Jenny and I have the privilege. It’s a whole new area. The Anglican Communion is worldwide and is massive. It really is a manifestation of every tribe, tongue, and so forth. So we are now part of this massive Christian family around the world with more opportunities to spread the Gospel. And we feel deeply privileged.
Sam Allberry
And what doesn’t it mean what hasn’t changed with you? Oh, becoming Anglican?
Ray Ortlund
Well, what hasn’t changed is my identity has not changed. I am not an Anglican. I am an Anglican Christian. The word Anglican is an ad addictive. The word Christian is a noun. And that’s my identity. Yeah. So I have not what hasn’t happened, Sam is I have not distanced myself from other believers, all Christians, we share the same identity in Christ. And then the various groups we’re a part of are places where we can just sort of enter in and get really comfortable and go deep and become productive long term. So it’s if we understand our various locations within Christianity in a healthy gospel centered way, we feel simultaneously linked profoundly and joined and united with all Christians everywhere, and happily located and fruitfully located right where the Lord wants us within that totality.
Sam Allberry
That’s wonderful and stared at a manual that has, oh,
Ray Ortlund
we adore Emanuel church, Nashville, and Pastor TJ and everyone there.
Sam Allberry
Great. Well, we’ve talked about Bishop Clark, we’ve just mentioned pastor TJ, and TJ is going to be joining us later this season for an episode or two. Which brings us on to today’s topic, which is leadership. And this This may seem like a an obvious question, but it’s one I found myself wrestling with a lot. And that is what makes Christian leadership, Christian leadership. Presumably, it’s not just the fact that the person doing the leading happens to be a Christian, presumably there is a Christian way to lead and begin to think about them.
Ray Ortlund
And indeed, what makes anything Christian leadership, whatever it might be. And I, this is a burning question, Sam, we have all in in Britain and in America, we elsewhere, we have all been shocked. And we have been betrayed by leaders, presumably, authentic Christians, whose leadership was so unlike Christ, even contrary to Christ, not just falling short, but opposite to Christ, that the destruction was profound, and publicly grievous. So the question really matters? How would you answer this question? What makes Christian leadership truly Christian?
Sam Allberry
Well, one, one part of that answer, and I’m saying this against myself as much as I am against anybody else, but But thinking through the impact your son, Danes book, gentle and lowly has had. It seems to have struck a vast swathe of the Christian world as as news that Jesus is, in fact, gentle and lowly. And that that begs the the painful question, is that something we hadn’t already learned from the way that we’ve been led,
Ray Ortlund
so gentle and lowly, the fact that the response to that book has been so strong and emphatic and widespread
Sam Allberry
and surprised a lot of people did not know Jesus was like this. And that that has to be some indictment on all of us. Are we not? Is it not obvious from the way we are shepherding churches that Jesus himself is gentle and lowly of heart? Yeah. So that’s the challenge, isn’t it? How can we lead in a way that reflects the Good Shepherd himself, we’re under shepherds, he’s the Good Shepherd, we need to be shepherding in a way that is very much Congress to his own heart, his own approach.
Ray Ortlund
So Sam, what would be what would be some opposites to gentle and lowly?
Sam Allberry
Well, Jesus gives us one of them in the famous part of Mark chapter 10, when he says, not even the Son of Man came to be served, but to serve and he says in that section, that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, so that kind of big deal nurse, I’m the one who’s in charge, you will revolve around me, if even the Son of Man and the logic is the Son of Man of all people is the one with the greatest authority. If the person in the universe with the greatest authority is not wielding that in a way that is, you are all here to revolve around me, but actually I am here and using that very authority to lay down my life for you. That is, in one level that servant hearted it’s, it’s more than servant hearted. It’s it’s cruciform, isn’t it? Well, so it’s using whatever institutional authority, natural power by virtue of our gifting our personality, whatever we’ve got going for us, whatever natural authority we possess, has to be wielded for the sake of of the other, not for the sake of ourselves. That’s got to be one component shortly.
Ray Ortlund
And when I think of gentle and lowly, our Lord’s own words, describing himself right down to his core being his heart, this is who he is and cannot not be who he always will be. It’s not a strategy. This is not a leadership strategy from Jesus. This is who he is. Yeah. And the opposite would be with a lot of ways to say it, bullying and haughty. Whenever Christian leaders use coercion, force, shaming that’s not a falling short of the glory of God. That is opposite to the Word of God. It is a betrayal. And
Sam Allberry
it’s fleshly, isn’t it?
Ray Ortlund
It’s meaning taking a shortcut. Yeah. And unprincipled, shortcut. Instead of doing the right thing that is Christ like, and trusting him for the outcome? Yeah.
Sam Allberry
There are obviously, paradigms of leadership we see in the world around us, business, world, Army, all kinds of other areas of leadership and much we can learn from various secular forms of leadership. Each of us will have our own heroes of people over the years that we’ve we can think about that. That’s a wonderful example of leadership. But there is a certain that this Christian cruciform, it is not something we’re not likely to learn that piece from even wonderful examples of leadership around us.
Ray Ortlund
And cruciform meaning.
Sam Allberry
Well, this idea that I actually, I’m gonna cause myself pain rather than causing the other person pain in order to move things forward here. Yeah.
Ray Ortlund
cross shaped. Yeah. So what we’re saying, Sam, is that Christian leadership is not leadership that advances Christian orthodoxy. Christian leadership is leadership that is itself operating with moving forward in flavored by Christ Himself. Yeah. And I, I think of Ephesians chapter four, verse 13, this remarkable language, it refers to mature manhood as the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. When we Christian leaders, take one facet of Christ, one angle of vision on Christ, one part of Christ, and magnify that make that the theme of our ministry make that our brand, make that our message and parlay that one aspect of Christ into a ministry. That’s not Christian. But it can feel it’s surprising, because if we’re half, right, we really are half right. But given our nature, our fallenness, and our flawed nature, we don’t feel simultaneously or even see we are half wrong as well. So we have a really legitimate insight into Christ that we all can and should rejoice in, but there is so much more to him. So my point is that truly Christian leadership will not limit itself to branding, exploiting, developing a following. By pressing, pressing, pressing on one issue, or one doctrine, or one aspect of the real Christ, but we will hold ourselves responsible to the to the more demanding tasks, the more thrilling task of entering into exploring, daring to believe in the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we ourselves are always learning, we’re always on a growth edge. And we’re sharing we’re leading people into the adventure of discovery. And we are not saying see me here, you really need me because I have understanding I have knowledge, I have information. I have doctrine that you don’t have, you need me that is not Christian. But going, saying to people, could we go together into the vastness of Christ, all that he is, which will inevitably stretch us and and large us and our own theological tradition will be stretched and enlarged. We’ll have to make some adjustments. But as long as we’re following Christ, according to Scripture, we are on a roll. This is going to be great. Now that it seems to me that the kind of reverence for the the stature of Christ in His fullness, that I look at that kind of leadership, and I see humility, I see openness. And I see a better future for me and everybody who gets involved. I think that’s Christian,
Sam Allberry
why you think of John the Baptist, He must increase, I must decrease. And I think sometimes we get this weird metric in our minds of I’ve got to be looking good. So Jesus can look good. And so my leadership has to look good, because I’m the PR agent for for Jesus leadership, which is, is tempting and fleshly. And, and in some senses attractive, other than the fact that it’s completely wrong.
Ray Ortlund
I wonder, you know, in my own heart, how many times I’ve thought, Well, He must increase, and I’ll increase to it, we’ll do this together. I’ll share my platform of Jesus. I mean, I owe him a lot, right? I’ll be big about this. So you know, I, people should notice Jesus, and it doesn’t work that way.
Sam Allberry
Your comments about how you know, you all need me and I’m the indispensable one. I love the parable of the growing seed and Mark fall where the farmer says the seed, and then he sleeps, and the seed grows. There’s that sense of dispensability about each one of us if we really believe that Christ is the one who builds His church is his word that does the work. I did the kingdom is not dependent on me. I can actually, I can sleep at night and God’s not worried that I’m inactive.
Ray Ortlund
Okay, I’ll be so bold to say this Sam, the arch enemy of authentic ministry that we pastors should actually be afraid of, is not only heterodoxy, heresy, theological betrayal. The Arch Enemy is also pastoral, big deal Enos and swagger even within an orthodox framework, any pastor who is throwing his weight around making demands and it’s way too important to him to be noticed. And to be cultivating celebrity status. That is a stab in the back of Jesus Christ. God’s Baris, yeah.
Sam Allberry
Which must mean that one essential feature of Christian leadership is is, if nothing else, we’re also leading in repentance. That’s I was thinking on what Paul says in First Timothy four. He says to Timothy in verse 14, do not neglect the gift you have which was given to you by the by prophecy, when the Council of Elders lay their hands on you practice these things, immerse yourself in them, so that all may see your progress. So it should be possible for a church to see its pastor growing in faith, and that will involve a times the pastor saying, hey, you know what I’ve realized like this, this particular topic, I got this wrong in the past, I’ve now realized the Bible actually says this about it, or I’m realizing I need to repent of this particular sin in my heart. It’s the fact that the church is meant to see our progress is meant. Presumably, it means that the church is seeing us learning. And that involves repenting as well as
Ray Ortlund
learning and growing. I remember my dad said, to Lake Avenue church one time, he said, I believe this church needs a new pastor. And I’d love to be that new pastor. How can you not admire and follow a man with that kind of heart?
Sam Allberry
That’s wonderful. Yeah. Ray, just one other quick thing. You and I were chatting about just before we started recording. In Philippians. Paul talks about how he feels about the church, just your eyes. I
Ray Ortlund
noticed this just last week, Sam, I was I was preaching out near Philadelphia on Philippians chapter one. And Paul says, as I recall, in verse eight, it is right. It is right. Here’s a right wrong issue. It is right for me to feel this way about you because I hold you in my heart. And this is in chapter one of the book. It’s not an afterthought. It is what the Apostle front loads in serving and ministering to this young church. He’s not embarrassed about how he feels about them. He says it is right. For me to feel this way about you because They hold you in my heart. There is an emotional relational quality to truly Christian leadership. That is beautiful. Let’s, let’s dare, can we give ourselves permission to let Christ make even us beautiful?
Sam Allberry
And it was right not just for Paul to feel that way, but for to tell them that he felt that was right. He wanted them to know how he felt.
Ray Ortlund
That’s right. Yeah. And he wasn’t embarrassed. He wasn’t apologizing. Yeah, he would have had to apologize. He hadn’t told them.
Sam Allberry
Yeah, well.
Ray Ortlund
Okay, so we are thankful to crossway books for sponsoring the you’re not crazy podcast with the gospel Coalition. We love crossway. Sam, you just told me about a book that crossway is soon going to republished and remind us what that
Sam Allberry
I’m so glad there was a book that came out I think, in the early 90s by Don Carson and John Woodbridge called Letters along the way. And it was their sort of doing a reverse Screwtape Letters. It was letters from a fictional seminary professor to a young, converted and the letters M, kind of spanned over, you know, several years of this, this man becoming a Christian growing in his faith, going into pastoral ministry. And it’s a book that affected me profoundly. When I read it. I was a very young Christian, but beginning to sense. The Lord leading me into pastoral ministry and my my pastor put this book in my hand. Oh, wow. And that book has become a dear friend. Yeah, it is full of wisdom and character and insight. And crossway wonderfully, I’ll republishing it in just a couple of months time, I think.
Ray Ortlund
Right. So Don Carson, John Woodbridge letters along the way. I feel the same way you do about the book. I mean, it marked me I still I can see it in my mind’s eye on the page, a quote they included from John Wesley. John Wesley wrote a letter to a young pastor in the Methodist movement and kind of leveled with him and said, No, the reason why your people find your ministry tedious is you don’t read at all. You’re not growing, you’re not reading and going deep in your own understanding of the gospel. And you need to read books. And if that was true in the 18th century, how much more is it true now we need to put our smartphones down and put them in another room and read. I want to say to the younger pastors of the rising generation, you must M U S. T must guard your capacity to read and study and think. Don’t let any device rob you have the dignity of careful thought and discovery. That that is a gift of God and it enhances your stature and make takes you to a deeper place with Christ Himself, and makes you put repositions you for tremendous fruitfulness in your ministry. You must read, okay.
Sam Allberry
The Smarter all things get the dumber we get. Boy that’s
Ray Ortlund
well said. Sam, thank you so much. Thanks, Ray.